Blown and Leaking Motherboard Capacitors - a major issue? [Archive]

Kalvan81230

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Failing capacitors has been a problem for some time. The best motherboards use small tantalum capacitors. Tantalum capacitors are stable and last a long, long time. Many people say that, baring electical abuse, they last virtually forever. However, they cost a lot. Like a buck a pop last time I looked. If it takes about 25 to 50 of 'em to quiet a Pentium class machine... there's not much profit margin in a $65 retail motherboard. The two most expensive components on a mobo are the ZIF CPU socket and the capacitors. So, the temptation - or the obvious solution - is to use much cheaper electrolytic capacitors. How much cheaper? Around a dime each. Ahhh! Profit margin restored! The problem is that NO electrolytic is going to be around for the long haul, although a good one will hang in for a decade or so. I had some cheap Amptron motherboards that all crapped out within 18 months. For most people, that's OK, 'cause you're gonna upgrade by then. Do YOU want a 300 mhz Celeron or AMD K-6/2? I didn't think so. Heck, your kids don't want a 300mhz machine either. Not even the 4 year old. A defective batch of electrolyte will certainly speed things up, but it's not as bit a deal as the difference between electrolytic capacitors and tantalum capacitors. In most electronic design circles, electrolytic capacitors are called "leakylytic" capacitors, as much for their electronic characteristics as fcr their physical characteristics. The take home message - look at your boards, look for tantalum capacitors (they look like tics). Kalvan

JustBrewIt

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I had an elitegroup k7s5a that killed itself quite the same way, although I'm still not completely convinced it was'nt the power supply... the capasitors were bulged but not leaking, also some "kondensator"s were...kinda melted, Not sure what you mean by "kondensators" -- "condenser" is another (obsolete) term for capacitor. Do you possibly mean the inductors (donut shaped coils), or the MOSFETs (square black things with 2 or 3 thick silvery wires coming out of them)? the power-in adapter was partly darkened This is an indication of drawing too much power through the ATX power connector. Motherboards without auxiliary (ATX12V) power connectors are succeptible to this problem, if used with a fast CPU and high-end video card. and a bit of my thnderbird's die is crumbled away.. Ouch! so I guess in my case it was a combined effort of the unstable powersupply and faulty capasitors.. Could also be that the capacitors shorted out, and took the PSU with them. btw: the thunderbird is still working :-) If it got hot enough to cause the die to chip, it would be dead. The physical damage to your die was almost certainly caused during heatsink installation, not by power issues.

Max Page

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

These pictures are of a 1-2 year old board that suffered a premature death as was mentioned in the <a href="http://www.pcstats.com/newsletter.html" target="_blank">PCStats.com Newsletter, Issue No. 76.</a> The mainboard became unstable in the system it was powering and was replaced after countless operating system reinstalls. The tell tale warning signs of capacitor failure are blown and bulged aluminum capacitor tops, and leaking electrolyte at the base. Replacement of the capacitors themselves is one solution - but the real question is just how widespread is the issue, and is it still prevalent? Post your own pictures if you have a motherboard with these problems, and tell us what you think! <div align="center"><IMG height=462 alt="" src="http://www.pcstats.com/articleimages/200302/capblown_4.jpg" width=600 border=0> <IMG height=415 alt="" src="http://www.pcstats.com/articleimages/200302/capblown_5.jpg" width=479 border=0> <IMG height=367 alt="" src="http://www.pcstats.com/articleimages/200302/capblown_11.jpg" width=591 border=0> </div>

Joe

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

AH! the arrows, the arrows! they are everywhere! <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif" border="0"> .... I glad to say I have never had this problem <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> BTW, is that a old abit be6 motherboard?

KTCUK

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I to had problems with my Slot A mobo it was an Abit ka7 i had it sent back to Abit and they charged me £55 to fix it. they sent it back all working but no more then 3 months later they all poped again i sent it back and the report said that the copsators had blown but during testing it popped there CPU so it was likely that mine was blown too so i had to buy one off ebay for £ 40 and i also bought a new 350 wat PSU just to make sure it wasnt that and a surge protector. they sent it back again but it poped once more so i sent it back and they just replaced the mobo with the Abit KA7 -100 YAY i thought till it poped yet again this time i was getting realy Pi&^ed at them they just said well tough mr Codd we aint fixing it no more so im left with an slot A cpu and a busted board so my lesson to me and you all is DONT BUY AN ABIT BOARD it will all end in tears and you out of pocket if i can i will take pics of my toasted mobo and post them later

CaffeinatedSoap

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

i had this happen and didnt realize it tell now i wuz gonna replace a atx connector on my friends thinking that it had been ruined by the ps well thanks for savin me the trouble

Galvatron001

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

How old does a board usually have to be before noticing signs of defective capictor damage?

PCJunkie

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I have had a board die on me from this same problem. It wasn't an Abit board though, it was an MSI K7T266 Pro. I had the same problems diagnosing the problems as well until I ripped it out of the case and noticed the "different" looking capacitors. I have pasted a pretty interesting link here http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/feb03/ncap.html for your enjoyment. I read about this a few weeks ago when I saw this on The Register and it seems as though the only company willing to admit a problem is Abit even though the problem is widespread. The article is pretty interesting and I suggest you check it out if you have the time, it seems that there is a reason these are blowing and if the reason is true it is actually pretty funny. Stay tuned...

DeanLowe

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

<a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/feb03/ncap.html">This may explain why it happened</a>.

SCoomby

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

A friend of mine had his computer fail due to bulged capacitors. The motherboard was just over one year old. It was a Socket 370 Motherboard with a Pentium III CPU. SCoomby

marphyre

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I work in a small computer store, and I can say that I have seen this problem a LOT. The worst boards I have seen have been the Shuttle AE22 and AE23 boards...EVERY one that we sold came back before the 2 year warranty was up. It's because of that board that we have had to drop to a 1 year warranty. I've also had a couple of older abit boards that have died due to this also. But those AE22's and 23's have been the worst by far...11 or 12 of them to count so far.

Spiderken

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Jep, my Abit Sa6R has it too. All the green ones have it. Later photos.

blowncapacitors

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Off the top of my head, I'd say I've got about 30 early Slot A motherboards with blown caps. They all were in daily use, and failures probably started about 1.5-2 years after deployment. The number of failures may well be higher, but Iam sure I have had at least this many. We are probably talking something like a 75% failure rate at this point. While a variety of capacitors on these boards were starting to bulge, the caps that ultimately seem to be the ones to go first are directly next to the ATX power connector. On this particular brand of board (MSI-6195), the caps are 6.3V 1000 microfarad and are marked with I.Q. and RLE, one of which I assume is the manufacturor of the cap. I have succesfully revived a handful of these boards by replacing the caps with 10V 1000 microfarad caps. So far (several months of use) , the voltage difference has not presented any problems. I have a single Biostar Slot A board which was getting flakey on reboot, and occasionally just being strange. I replaced its bulging caps next to the ATX power connector and it is now stable again. On this board the caps were 10V 1500 microfarad made by CHOYO.

Spiderken

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Those are from Abit's SA6R <img src="J:DocumentenCameraFoto's--Dsc00112.jpg"> <img src="J:DocumentenCameraFoto's--Dsc00105.jpg"> <img src="J:DocumentenCameraFoto's--Dsc00109.jpg"> <img src="J:DocumentenCameraFoto's--Dsc00110.jpg">

Spiderken

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Sorry for the wrong url to the photos. Here again from Abit's SA6R <img src="http://users.pandora.be/spinie/Mobo/--Dsc00105.jpg"> <img src="http://users.pandora.be/spinie/Mobo/--Dsc00109.jpg"> <img src="http://users.pandora.be/spinie/Mobo/--Dsc00110.jpg"> <img src="http://users.pandora.be/spinie/Mobo/--Dsc00112.jpg">

Joe

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Those are some nasty little blow outs you got there spider <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0"> welcome to pcstats btw <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">

Kurt

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I have a ECS micro ATX board built in 2000. When I replaced the video card a few months back I noticed that about half of the caps around the main power plug had bulging tops. So far everything seems to be working. Kurt

KTCUK

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

i double checked my toasted mobo and the copasitors have allready been replaced and they are still fine but they are 2 of them between my AGP slot and the first PCI they are toasted con some one point me inthe redirection so i can buy some more i dont fancy paying abit £55 to replace those 2 mail me keith@ktc.dyndns.org or icq 37199447

CompSnake

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

but it will be ok right?

Sentry

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Hi, I'm new here, a friend pointed out your article to me. I have a MSI 6330 v3 that has had most of its caps gone bad, I purchased it back in 13th July 2001. About October last year my system started to crash periodicly, getting more and more common over time, I tried swapping RAM, Video cards, and power supplys, nothing seemed to fix it, I done some research on google groups, and had came to the conclusion that that it was a faulty voltage regulator, as that seemed a common problem with MSI boards of that vintage. While I was waiting to save up some money for a new motherboard (MSI only have 1 year waranty NZ, and the shop I got it from had closed down <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0"> ) I remove the motherboard from the case and noticed how most of the caps had gone bad, I couldn't really believe I had missed it, so I aren't sure if when I first got the problems that there were any visual signs of the caps having problems or not. Here are two photos of my board, not the greatest photos, but it shows the problem <img src="http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dave-c/MSI/IMG_0811.JPG"> <img src="http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~dave-c/MSI/IMG_0812.JPG">

SpLiCe

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

In PCA manufacturing there's a process called solder flow. This process involves sending a board or cluster of boards through an oven that bakes the solder at 600 degrees in order to flow the solder into perfect solder joints. I've worked in a couple assembly lines where cap discharge occured frequently in functional testing before packaging and shipment. After reworking the boards almost daily for roughly 3 months, we decided it's not the parts, it's the process. We simply put the caps on in back load (post oven and router operations) to avoid overheating and litterally changing the chemical nature of the capacitors. We found success on the first run of boards in that process with zero failure due to capacitive damage. So, as to the cause of this issue, it's a matter of whom is actually manufacturing these boards and if they are following A- documentation properly, or B- correct documentation. The only way to get these companies to change their manufactoring policies is to have a very massive number of complaints, and for that company then to see a decrease in sales related to those complaints. So, if you've seen this problem in your mainboard, or for that matter, any PCA (printed circuit assembly, ie. video, sound, mobo, nic etc..), then look up the complaints address of that manufacturer and drop them a line.

STEELKANE

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

i have two abit ka7 boards this happend to, but before they blew it was a very good boad.but time to move on and put them in the alley.i still have a abit bh6 and two be6 boards that run great with 1ghz chips, but there old with no 4x agp. so its time to move on to better 8x agp boards.motherboards are like tires on a car when the go bad just get new ones and stop crying.

wizza21

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Hi folks, I'm fixing computer in a retrail store and I saw all kind of popped or leaked capacitor in my life. But, these I say more and more of this. Mobo maker seems to put cheap eletronic devices in their products. It'S realy bad, imagine you saying to a 20 years old beauty (I'm 21...) that her computer is broken because some capacitors have popped and to repair her Slot A board it cost 200$ or she can buy a new board, memory and CPU.... That's a shame!!<img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0"> Wizza

KTCUK

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

im not crying about the loss of my mobo im just annoyed at the quality of abits products i had this mobo for less then a year and it popped the first time im sorry to say that it's not good enough to have a mobo blow every year and just say ahhwell time for a new one. i have some very old Asus/MSI/Jetway socket 7 boards and they still run fine as the day i bought them where i work we also have 150+ old computers (ranging from p133 to xp 1800+) and we have hardly no trouble from the older machines apart from an odd PSU and cpu fan burning out and also the fact i was told to pay for my repairs when abit had publicly said they will repair for free (i saw it on a web site a few nights ago) And also that the same thing happened not once but 3 times i also found this website selling the caps i need http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/search/SearchDisplay.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0912241448.1046 014418@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccgadchjdddheecfngcfkmdgkldfhl.0&SearchType=quick&SearchText=Capacitors+&quickSubmit=Go

Zaphod

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I have had 2 ABit mobo failing within 1 mounth of each other, a BF6 and BX133-RAID, on the other hand I have a BX6 v2.0 that is running 24/7 with no failures... When the 2nd one failed, I began to measure the mobo's, check the net and so on, and found that is is NOT ABit that makes crappy boards like KTCUK says: << im not crying about the loss of my mobo im just annoyed at the quality of abits products >> But they probably just bought alot of the defective cap's - IBM, Soyo, Dell, also have some of the cap's...... The problem I found with replacing them was the problem finding 1500uF or 2200uF 6,3V cap's that would fit in the board... the faulty cap's was 8mm, and most of the cap's I found at the dealers was 10mm - it is posible to fit them, but dosn't look that good..... I have alot of pic of the caps, you can get then here <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.bam-bam.dk/caps/index.htm">17Mb !</a> <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.niccomp.com/taiwanlowesr.htm">The story of the caps</a>

nickursis

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I have wondered why some of my mobo's have misbehaved in the past. Could some of the BSOD's we have so cruelly blamed on MS be, in fact, hardware?...Nah.... It's MS. I have a few ECS boards I have replaced, and Ialways put it up to instability in windows. It makes sense though, if the caps no longer isolate, the system processor sees randome bits here and there, which no doubt filter to the OS, and crash. I will post pics of mine. Question is: What get's done about this? Class action? How about people out big bucks like some posts here? And what has been done to fix the issue so I know the next board I buy is not preloaded with crappy caps?

Zaphod

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I'm pretty sure that the problem with the electrolyte HAVE been fixed, and the unlucky scientist is out of a job now <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif" border="0">) My BF6 (running as a server), had for ½ a year popped up with BOD, all refeering to harddrive or ram problems like, "Inacceserble boot device" and the like. I'm using a old 6,4Gb WD disk as a system disk, and I thought "well, the drive has had it", but lazy as I am, I just reset the computer and it was running again, some times for a mounth.....just to crash again... The last time it crashed, it wouldn't start up when I pushed reset, and I thought "ok, the win2k has crashed so many times now, it is totaly messed up", so I formated the drive, but the computer crashed in the format process, I just restarted the format, but then it crashed in the windows install....... I turned it off, kicked it and went on playing UT <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> Then it hit me "there is also a ABit mobo in the server !!!" - by this time I had the BX133-RAID modo laying around for 14 days with blown caps. Off with the case, and yes, all the 1500uF caps was very dead...... So, the point af all this is - when the caps starts to fail, it can take a long time before it completly fails, so in boubt, check the caps -

WicKeDMaSteR

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I have been messing with computers for about three years now and I have see capacitors blown on boards alot , Its not really new , it happends in alot of electronics as I used to repair other stuff before I got into computers , and its one of the first things I look at when looking to buy equipment of any kind for myself because its a fast sign the manufacturer is cutting corners , Capacitors , no matter how good thier made , Usually all depends on the seal , I have seen capacitors actually explode , thats why they have the cuts in the top now, because they can be potentially dangerous if they blow and dont have the cuts they may shoot the top off like a little aluminum bullet ! I agree with Kalvan81230 "The best motherboards use small tantalum capacitors" , But this should extend to every part in a computer that uses capacitors as they are more stable . also they show a manufacturers commitment to quality.

JustBrewIt

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I have personally had 3 motherboards die or go flaky due to bad capacitors over the past year: An Abit KT7-RAID, a FIC AZ11, and an MSI K7Pro. I also recently inherited an MSI K7T Turbo from one of my clients which had several popped capacitors and a blown MOSFET (apparently when the caps went, they shorted out and took the MOSFET with them). Oh, and I've got an Allied 300W ATX PSU with a couple of bulging capacitors in it too. I've managed to repair all four of the above motherboards... but WTF?!?? It is an epidemic! Quality has really gone down the toilet. My old Socket 7 hardware is outliving a lot of my newer stuff. If you have a motherboard made between 1 and 3 years ago, pop the cover off your system and take a good look at the capacitors. You might be shocked by what you find. Edit: All of the bad caps I've replaced so far have had the markings "I.Q.", "Chhsi", or "JPCON" on them. Presumably these are the names of the companies that made the caps. I've been using low ESR, 105C rated capacitors (Panasonic FC series) from <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.digi-key.com">Digi-Key</a> as replacements.

marphyre

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

yah, thinking about it now, I'd have to say that mobos aren't the only thing I've seen with blown caps...cheap power supplies are bad about it too. I've only actually seen it happen one time, when a cap blew in a power supply...it was nasty! A loud POP like a gun going off, and then a bunch of white smoke came pouring out of the power supply...but I've had plenty of machines come in that I had to replace the power supply, and just out of curiosity look inside and it was a cap that had literrally blown up...I need to get a digital camera and start taking pictures :> hehe...the ones in power supplies usually don't just leak though...they get mad!

kandiman71874

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

beware, that board will start causing you probs b4 to awful long kurt. i am a partime computer tech at a local puter store here in overland park kansas and it seems that half the system builds and board replacements we have had are due to the bulged/blown capacitor problem. one thing to keep in mind when you see this problem occuring and you keep running the system, capacitors are there to help regulate and when they cant regulate properly they will take out other sensitive components. so far i have seen them take out vid cards and a few pci lan cards so keep it running at your own risk. word of advise to everyone, if you notice this problem and the system still runs, back everythign up as soon as possible because the next time you go to start it up, it may laugh at you.

Roth

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I saw the article, and read this thread, and thought to myself. Hey! My old Abit KA7 that died about a year ago, I remember it having brown crap all over a bunch of the capacitors. I remember scraping a bunch of it off, thinking it was just rust or something... Didn't help the motherboard work any better.... So I dug it out of the closet and took a look. Sure enough! There are 16 1500microfarad, 6.3v JPCON capacitors on this board, and EVERY ONE is bulged and leaking. All the 100, 470, and 2200microfarad capacitors look perfectly fine, it's just the 1500 ones. All capacitors on my KA7 are made by JPCON. Here's some pics. <img src="http://www.seas.smu.edu/~redman/cap-img1.jpg"> <img src="http://www.seas.smu.edu/~redman/cap-img2.jpg"> <img src="http://www.seas.smu.edu/~redman/cap-img3.jpg">

Jumba

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Hiyas It's my first time here... I too had a motherboard die because of leaking caps. It's not an ASUS but an early Epox EP7-KXA Athlon board. At first, the system would hang randomly, then it started giving me BSOD's with messages saying that my primary volume is inaccessible, etc. Next, I started getting bad sectors on my primary HDD. I thought this might be due to a faulty power supply or damaged IDE cable. No go. Then it just refused to start at all, only powering up on the fourth or fifth time. This got steadily worse until it refused to boot at all. Anyhow, to cut a long story short, I wish I had known about the blown capacitors before. I lost a 40 Gig hard drive in the process and am pretty angry at mobo manufacturers who insist on cutting corners where they really shouldn't. Just my 2c. <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> Jumba

mindless1

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Heck yeah, it's almost a joke... you spend over $100 for a mobo only to find that it's lifespan is < 24 months. I've been lazily making the following 'bad caps' list... do what you want with it, but i know that I wouldn't depend on any motherboard using the following caps for filtering around memory, AGP, or CPU/mosfets: Lelon (G) Luxon Tayeh Jackcon I.Q

Buzz76

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

<< Do YOU want a 300 mhz Celeron or AMD K-6/2? I didn't think so. Heck, your kids don't want a 300mhz machine either. Not even the 4 year old. Kalvan >> Thats where youre wrong!!! My gf is happy with her Celery 333MHz <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif" border="0"> Seriously though, i have never seen this myself, and i have been building puters for 5-6 years now... dunno how many mobos i've seen or fiddled with. My Abit BH6 is still chugging along... so is my old (5years+) A-Trend Socket7 board (in my mums puter). No probs yet with my Soyo D+ board <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> Hope i never see this either.

Roth

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

mindless1, don't forget JPCON. The original poster, RYE, and I. Both our boards, all JPCON caps and tons busted.

Onineko

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I had an elitegroup k7s5a that killed itself quite the same way, although I'm still not completely convinced it was'nt the power supply... the capasitors were bulged but not leaking, also some "kondensator"s were...kinda melted, the power-in adapter was partly darkened and a bit of my thnderbird's die is crumbled away.. so I guess in my case it was a combined effort of the unstable powersupply and faulty capasitors.. btw: the thunderbird is still working :-) ceya neko

JustBrewIt

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Jumba -- I agree... cost-cutting is a very serious problem; I think quality has really gone down the toilet in the past 2-3 years. Unfortunately, we -- as consumers -- are partly to blame for this trend. The emphasis that the PC enthusiast community places on high performance, low cost, and frequent upgrades encourages manufacturers to cut corners on things that affect reliability, and make "disposable" hardware. If the trend continues, you eventually won't be able to build a reliable system unless you buy "server class" components. mindless1/Roth -- Don't forget "Chhsi" either... the MSI board I fixed recently had a lot of bulging caps with this marking on them. Buzz76 -- I think you've been lucky. Your Socket 7 board is probably OK because it pre-dates this issue. I've built several Socket 7 systems (my own, and for others) which are still fine -- never had bad caps on any of them. I haven't seen any complaints about Soyo boards blowing caps (and my daughter's system w/Soyo Slot A mobo is still chugging along), so maybe Soyo isn't succeptible. I'd really keep an eye on that Abit though...

Skull

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I have had this problem many times with the MSI MS-6163 motherboards, and a few times with the MSI MS-6309. I have probably replace 50-60 motherboards with that exact problem in the last 2 years. Sometimes we catch it and are able to replace the caps. Othertimes the voltage regulators go because of the swollen caps and the motherboard isn't worth fixing to us.

Laythe

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

This came in 2 days ago, board was bought in May-02 Its a MSI KT7266 Pro <img src="http://www.stcedds.com/Techsupport/Picture4.jpg"> <img src="http://www.stcedds.com/Techsupport/Picture5.jpg"> <img src="http://www.stcedds.com/Techsupport/Picture6.jpg">

JDonahue

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

At JWCC, most of our Spacewalker motherboards that were being used by our PII 400's and our PIII 650's had that problem... one even took a sound card down with it.

Buzz76

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

<< I had an elitegroup k7s5a that killed itself quite the same way, although I'm still not completely convinced it was'nt the power supply... the capasitors were bulged but not leaking, also some "kondensator"s were...kinda melted, Not sure what you mean by "kondensators" -- "condenser" is another (obsolete) term for capacitor. Do you possibly mean the inductors (donut shaped coils), or the MOSFETs (square black things with 2 or 3 thick silvery wires coming out of them)? the power-in adapter was partly darkened This is an indication of drawing too much power through the ATX power connector. Motherboards without auxiliary (ATX12V) power connectors are succeptible to this problem, if used with a fast CPU and high-end video card. and a bit of my thnderbird's die is crumbled away.. Ouch! so I guess in my case it was a combined effort of the unstable powersupply and faulty capasitors.. Could also be that the capacitors shorted out, and took the PSU with them. btw: the thunderbird is still working :-) If it got hot enough to cause the die to chip, it would be dead. The physical damage to your die was almost certainly caused during heatsink installation, not by power issues. >>

Buzz76

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

<< Not sure what you mean by "kondensators" -- "condenser" is another (obsolete) term for capacitor. Do you possibly mean the inductors (donut shaped coils), or the MOSFETs (square black things with 2 or 3 thick silvery wires coming out of them)? >> Sorry about that last post. This is what i ment to say: Kondensator is Norwegian for capasitor <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">

CompSnake

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

OMG so many new people

JustBrewIt

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

OMG so many new people This topic really seems to have touched a nerve, eh? I've been ranting elsewhere (e.g. AMDZone, Ace's) about bad caps for a few months now. Saw a link to the PCStats article, and decided to head on over and add my $.02... <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0"> Laythe, those are some seriously trashed capacitors you've got there! They look just like the ones on an MSI K7T Turbo I worked on recently...

Onineko

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

CompSnake

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

it doesnt bother me

Onineko

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

<< I had an elitegroup k7s5a that killed itself quite the same way, although I'm still not completely convinced it was'nt the power supply... the capasitors were bulged but not leaking, also some "kondensator"s were...kinda melted, >> << Not sure what you mean by "kondensators" -- "condenser" is another (obsolete) term for capacitor. Do you possibly mean the inductors (donut shaped coils), or the MOSFETs (square black things with 2 or 3 thick silvery wires coming out of them)? >> <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> I was talking about the mosfets (when it comes to technical terms my english sometimes takes a break..) << the power-in adapter was partly darkened >> << This is an indication of drawing too much power through the ATX power connector. Motherboards without auxiliary (ATX12V) power connectors are succeptible to this problem, if used with a fast CPU and high-end video card. >> well I think it was a quite healthy system, with a thunderbird 1.4 and a modded geforce2...but wtf, it was a crappy mobo anyways with crappy bios and prone to irq-trouble.. << so I guess in my case it was a combined effort of the unstable powersupply and faulty capasitors.. >> << Could also be that the capacitors shorted out, and took the PSU with them >> well, maybe, I dunno ...i think I remember some of them being bulged a bit, but at the time I didn't pay attention, then the system froze and rebootet and whatnot again & again, and during one of the resets there was suddenly a godawfull smell so I immendiatly cut the power and after that the caps were...quite obiously dead, as well as the mosfets.. << btw: the thunderbird is still working :-) >> << If it got hot enough to cause the die to chip, it would be dead. The physical damage to your die was almost certainly caused during heatsink installation, not by power issues. >> humm, sounds rather reasonable, but I'm not convinced <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> I'm quite carefull with my thunderbird and when I opened the system to check the components, part of the ceramics were kinda darkened and stuff...I guess it's just a miracle that I oughta be thankful for <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0"> ceya neko

JustBrewIt

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Hmm... I wonder if this is at all related: <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=7997">Sony sued over alleged DVD defects</a> Anyone got a Sony DVD player they care to open up and check for JACKON/I.Q./etc. capacitors? <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif" border="0">

mindless1

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

<< This is an indication of drawing too much power through the ATX power connector. Motherboards without auxiliary (ATX12V) power connectors are succeptible to this problem, if used with a fast CPU and high-end video card. >> NO it's not. There were and still are plenty of people using the high-end processors, video cards, more memory than ever on boards that only use the 20-pin ATX connector, no 12V connector, without incident. This problem occurs when the connectors don't make good contact (whether it be due to defect, damage, dirt, etc), increasing resistance/heat, or also slight arching.

Roth

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

You know what, Capacitors are used is basically EVERYTHING electronic right? Wow, if they actually sold these "bad" caps to many different companies, you could be seeing almost anything going bad... Hey, what are some good links for places to buy replacement capacitors? I thought I saw one but can't find it now.

mindless1

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

These are only the particular low-ESR caps that are going bad, not all electrolytic caps, and the circuit this cap is used in plays a major role in how quicky the defect causes failure. A digicam, for example, might function for years with some "defective" caps in it, could end up obsolete or see a different point of failure before the caps die.

Roth

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

About the caps. The ones on my board that are dead are all JDEC 1500µF, 6.3volt, 105 °C capacitors. Now, if I'm going to buy some to replace them will ANY caps that meet those 3 specs work? Or are there other things I need to look for also? I've done some soldering before, but don't know much about electrical components.

JustBrewIt

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Now, if I'm going to buy some to replace them will ANY caps that meet those 3 specs work? Or are there other things I need to look for also? They need to have low equivalent series resistance (that's what "Low ESR" stands for). I've had good luck using Panasonic FC series caps from <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.digi-key.com">Digi-Key</a>. Match up the capacitance and voltage, and check the physical dimensions & lead spacing of the caps you're replacing against Panasonic's data sheet (downloadable from Digi-Key's site) to make sure the replacements will fit. If a particular type is out of stock you can safely substitute the next higher voltage grade. Edit: One more thing... make sure you get the polarity right when installing the new ones. Otherwise the replacements will explode in fairly short order, and you'll have to do it over again...

madmatt

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I have just checked my abit kt7a mother bd and found that 3 cap's are experiencing stress all 3 are bulging at the top and one of the 3 has actually pushed out the rubber bung at the bottom to the extent that the cap' is leaning over. This bd is roughly 2 years old and is displaying problems in the nature of int' aqua blue lines down the screen, these only appear after being on for many hours and when scrolling the screen to display something at the bottom of a window. Any one know of a good mail order supplier of capacitors????? I will change them myself and let you all know the result. (this is if i can find a decent retail mail order company here in the UK. All the best guys Mad_Matt.

KTCUK

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

mat if you find a place can you email me with the info as i still cand find a place that will sell these in less amouts of 500 keith@ktc.dyndns.org

iwan

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

after reading the article, I immediately check my old motherboards. Sure enough, all those motherboards has bulging and leaking capacitors. at least now i know what cause it to have problems. shutdown without notice, plenty of bsod, and in some case burning cd will produce coaster most of the time. old Mobos i have that has bad Capacitors are from Epox (socket 7), Abit (socket 7), Asus (slot 1). this bad Capacitors force me to upgrade (which probably time anyway). current mobo is ECS, hope this one last a while.

IceCaps

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Ya I have 2 blow systems, a Packard Bell w/ amd k6 333 and a HP Brio with a Pent pro 220mhz both with blow/leaking compacitors. On the HP there are 3 compacitors in a bunch wih what looks like white glue..or maybe caulk/paint..somthing like that, that is underneath all 3 compacitors..is this some sort of leakage from the compacitors or just normal stuff? I will try to get pics asap

SpLiCe

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Something to remember if you plan on replacing anything on a board that requires soldering.. is always always always use flux! If you don't, you'll find that most these boards have a heavy backplane, and the trace the solderhole is connecting to may melt enough to make the whole venture pointless. Use, flux before you solder in the area you are soldering in, and make sure and use Isopropl Alcohol to take it off when you're done.. be meticulous, or you may end up doing the work for nothing!

MRudas

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I'm new to this forum, But I have been an electronic technician for forty years and a computer technician for about 25. I am considering putting together a "Guide to Replacing Motherboard CPU Capacitors" -- but until then I will share some tips. Please be sure to read this guide IN ITS ENTIRETY before proceeding. As have others in this forum, I STRONGLY recommend the use of Panasonic (Matsu************************a) "FC" series electrolytic capacitors. Why? Not only are they the best available, but they are quite easy to obtain from <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.Digi-Key.com">Digi-Key</a>. I have done business with Digi-Key for over 30 years. During that time, over 90% of the elecrolytic capacitors I have purchased for repair and fabrication have been Panasonic from Digi-Key. The FC series are low equivalent-series-resistance (ESR) 105°C capacitors. This means that the high ripple currents that flow through them in this application not only flow more easily (a Good Thing), but also that less of this current is dissipated as internal heat (also a Good Thing). "Normal" capacitors are rated 85°C and are just not up to this kind of stress. Use a 30-40 watt soldering iron. I also recommend the use of the Radio Shack catalog number 64-2060 45-watt Desoldering Iron with the catalog number 64-2062 Heavy-Duty Desoldering Tip (tip erosion happens rather quickly with the stock tip; the heavy-duty tip is iron-clad and holds up well). You need LOTS of heat to desolder the caps, as a motherboard is a multi-layer printed circuit board (PCB) with a large area of copper as a ground plane. I also recommend the use of 63/37 eutectic-alloy solder for best results, though 60/40 is OK too. Digi-Key has the solder, as well. If a group of guys with the same problem pool resources, you can buy the caps in bulk and share the tools and solder. Make sure that the caps you obtain for replacement match (as closely as possible) the originals' physical size -- measure them. In the values these boards use, they are available in two styles -- short & wide and tall & skinny. Most boards use tall & skinny. Typical Digi-Key part numbers are P10202-ND for the "tall" 1500mFd/6.3V cap and P10204-ND for the "tall" 2200mFd/6.3V cap. This will give you a starting point for a site search. You can also download all or parts of the Digi-Key catalog in PDF format. Practice, practice, practice! I recommend that you get a hold of a scrap motherboard (especially 486-based or later) and work with it until you feel comfortable enough to move on to the real thing -- it's REALLY easy to damage a PCB with excessive heat. Here's the procedure that I have used in the past: * Using the soldering iron, add a little solder to each of the connections that you will later UNsolder. This ensures a vacuum seal and good flow for the desoldering tool. This also reduces the need for added rosin flux. * Using the desoldering iron, carefully remove the solder from each connection. Give the joint enough time to melt all the way through, but not enough to burn the board -- this is where the practice pays off. Be sure to clear the solder from the iron's nozzle after EACH connection. * Once the connections are unsoldered, GENTLY rock each of the caps to ensure that they are unsoldered BEFORE pulling it out of the PCB (there's not much in electronic repair that's more disheartening than pulling up a trace along with the part). If it's still stuck, try applying the soldering iron TO THE LEADS ONLY while rocking the cap to free it. If it's STILL stuck, add solder to the connection and desolder it again. * If a capacitor leaked crud from the bottom instead of venting, all is not lost. Get some distilled water (best, though tap water will do) and mix it with baking soda (the electrolyte is basically boric acid). Apply the baking soda solution to the affected area and scrub (gently) with a toothbrush. Rinse the area with clean water (carefully, don't let the bicarbonate spread around), blot dry with a cloth or paper towel, then use compressed or "canned" air to blow water from under components. Follow this up with 91% or 99% isopropyl alcohol on a cotton swab (a good source for this is isopropyl "drygas" -- Iso-Heet, for example -- which is available at auto parts stores); this will remove rosin flux and other impurities. I think that's enough for now, except to say, "WATCH POLARITY!" Reversing polarity on a high-value electrolytic capacitor can cause the device to explode -- literally. The board is clearly marked, but a diagram is STILL a good idea. Disclaimer: The user assumes all responsibility for the results of this guide. I am not responsible if you damage or burn up your board, or if it fails to work once repaired. <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://Penguicon.SourceForge.net">Penguicon!</a>.

Excorcist

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

well, one thing you all should know is that gateway sold and still sells motherboards with this problem and refuses to update to a new model simply for the purpose that when the warranty goes out they can convince the dumbass that bought it to buy a new or remanufactured system (usually with the same problem). Gateway is a very corrupt company, for many reasons.

Colin

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Sticky for this thread!

kandiman71874

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

exorcist, i would have to agree with you on the gateway issue, personally i think all the proprietory bastards need to go piss up a rope.

nlel

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

Hi; I`ve just suffered the bad capacitors problem on my 1.5 year old Gigabyte 7VTXH rev 1.1 bought from dabs.com in October 2001. Problems relating to the cap damage was system shutting down randomly / freeze almost as though it was over-heating and the motherboard protection was cutting in. Well its not as much fun as winning the lottery but I guess it puts Jersey, Channel Islands, UK on the map <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif" border="0"> Anyway here`s photo I took; <img src="http://user.super.net.uk/~nlel/badcaps.jpg">

Canadian-Guy

06-15-04, 02:25 PM

I havent had time to check yet but I think my motherboards capacitors are starting to crap out, until recently my computer has been rock stable (even with overclocking) but now it has started to crash and freeze randomly <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif" border="0"> When i'm playing a game it'll suddenly stop, give me a little click sound then the screen goes black. If my motherboard has died i'm gonna be pissed...

Alpha

06-15-04, 02:26 PM

MSI 6880 socket 462 This board gave up no warning, reboots for around 180 secs then freezes up, all hardware check out ok found this cap popped when i removed mobo for inspection. Offending cap is Chhsi 2700 uf 6.3volts -40+105'C I wonder how many PC's are out there dead due to capacitor failure, and people being sold new systems. <img src="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/alphas/poppedcap.jpg"> I hope my Abit KR7A Raid is safe

Zaphod

06-15-04, 02:26 PM

Ive just had a PUS failing due to a blown cap, the server suddenly went down, and it was impossible to install windows again - stopping at some random .dll file.... - new PSU and it was running again... The cap was an CTC 3300 uF / 10V en an enlight 300W psu, I replaced it with a cap from a dead aopen PSU, and it is running again <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif" border="0">)

david

06-15-04, 02:26 PM

I have the exact same problem with a motherboard now.. a few interesting points: - Same motherboard pictured in the pcStats article - only the 1500 and 2000 as well...

Zaphod

06-15-04, 02:26 PM

<a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/resource/feb03/ncap.html">Another story about the caps</a>

DragonMaster

06-15-04, 02:27 PM

I have a EÜPA IBB mainboard with leaking caps (from the top, but one of them has red dried liquid). It works (I'm using it currently). But when I power it on, it does as if I didn't plugged the connectors on an AT mainboard but everything else. I have to wait 1 minute and then press reset. My radio got leaking ones but works better than a non-leaking one. My CD Player and AMP got ELNA caps. They are from 1989-1991 and still work even if the amp stays on days long. I have a MSI K7T266Pro2 that is still working, the same thing for my MSI GeForce 4 Ti4200, both perfectly. Advices: Try to get Elna caps, I never saw a leaking one. Use rosin core Sn60(or 40)/Pb40(or 60) with rosin flux core to sloder, rosin flux don't need to be removed.

ewraven

06-15-04, 02:27 PM

I just found that my old MB has two blown caps. It's a slot 1 Abit BH6 that was used for about five years. The top of one cap broke open and is corroding and the other is bulging out. I had a Celeron 333 on it for a few years and later a PIII 450; no overclocking.

GenevaDude

06-15-04, 02:27 PM

I just had an MSI K7T xxx die on me. We had a power surge a few days before Christmas and I was at the computer when it happened. Everything seemed to return to normal after the machine rebooted, but since then things just got worse. Many odd problems started to occur, like the clock not working, instability and more. Two days ago I returned from some chores to find my computer hung. I rebooted and it would not work. Then it just died altogether. I could see the drives trying to light up but it would not do anything. Nothing appeared on the screen. I was quite sure it was the mobo, so I decided to open up the case. What I saw is exactly like the pictures in this thread and in the article <a target=new class=ftalternatingbarlinklarge href="http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleID=195">mentioned in PCStats</a>. In fact I have exactly the caps mentioned, and noticed that some of the larger caps were OK, but all the ones, just like in the article were pregnant or leaking. Hmmm. New mobo, and all the problems of reinstalling XP, and I'm still not back to the good state. Has anyone ever tried suing the board manufacturers? I noticed that some have sent them back, but I would rather get a new board or an exact replacement. It's less than 2 years old and was just fine. regards <img src="i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif" border="0">

Fanboy

06-15-04, 02:27 PM

I have a KT7-RAID and 3 of the 1500uF caps had blown. I replaced all the capacitors on the board as I realised after replacing the bad 3 that the same crashes were happening. These caps are only designed to last about 2000 hours and that is very variable. If anyone is thinking of replacing the caps - replace them all. I used a normal run of the mill cheapo soldering iron to do the job and didn't bother doing anything other than removing the old ones and putting new ones in. My computer is now working fine. Also if you can't find 1500uF caps then use 2200uF caps at approximately the same voltage (never lower though). It is really easy to do providing you have good eyesight. Remove the caps by heating them from the underside of the board one at a time whilst pulling the cap until it comes out. Add a bit of solder to the empty holes on the other side of the board. Cut the legs of the new capacitor so that they are about 1.5 - 2cm long and solder one leg at a time. If it is tricky because the cap is between 2 pci slots then leave the legs really long and bend them over but becarefull not to let them touch. Becareful of electrostatic discharge from yourself to the motherboard - never seen it personally though. just touch your radiator every now and again if it is central heating (the exposed metal but) that should ground you! Motherboards are a lot more resiliant than experts say, they blame static discharge as a reason for breaking a computer when in fact they should have gone to Specsavers! When you put your motherboard back in, it can sometimes be a bit tricky to get it to post first time so fiddle about turning it on and putting the power supply conector in. Try lots of combinations for about 5 minutes with RAM, Processor and video card in. If the fans come on then you know you haven't broke it!!

Whoopass

06-15-04, 02:27 PM

I had a blown capacitor as well in an Abit bx6 mobo. Very strange. Actually i'm not sure if it is a capacitor or something else. It's not the bigger ones but smaller and the casing blew right off or melted because the silver casing to 2 of them were sitting on the bottom of the case and the coverings were melted down to nothing. The insulation was all unravelled as well. Upon boot up, the noise was like a failed starter on a car. Then it just popped, the burning electrical smell was overwhelming. Anyone know how to fix or why this may have happened? <img src="http://www.pigskinsurvival.com/abitmobo.jpg">

Mobotecho

06-15-04, 02:27 PM

Check out ebay, There are correct fit 8mm and 10mm Ultra Low ESR caps being sold now! You can call the company direct at 417-863-8119 I have replaced tons of caps so far and they work soooo much better when there the right size.

Mobotecho

06-15-04, 02:27 PM

Mobotecho

06-15-04, 02:27 PM

Check the diameter and height of the ones next to the blown one. If it is the same I would try the value of the one next to it. Other option is if someone has the exact same board they could look at the value for you. Sorry but I dont have one laying around now but I will sooner or later im sure. If you try the first option just goto computekinc.us and order the caps, or call them if you need a mix match of different ones.

Ron

07-19-04, 05:47 AM

I have had on going problems with Mobos blowing their capacitors. Started with Gigabyte super socket 7 boards back in 2000 with AMD K6-2 CHIPS ON 500/550MHZ. Sold 20 of them and got 10 returned inside 18 months. Trouble was Gigabyte nor the dealer I bought from would recognise any warranty as happened after 12 months from purchase. Don't deal with that supplier any more but of late have seen evidence of capacitor damage becoming more prevalent just a few examples.
Gigabyte GA-81DML Intel 845 chipset Capacitors blew after 18 months
MSI MS-6386 Via Chipset Capacitors blew after 18 months
DFI CB61 Intel chipset Capacitors blew after 26 months

It just seems to be that the longtivety has gone out of mainboards now and upgrading or new systems will become the norm for the industry

Regards
Ron

TL_ALL

08-03-04, 02:08 PM

Purchased a Gigabyte GA-7VRXP KT333 - ran solid for around a year and a half. Machine started to get cluttered so I did a system format/reinstall. After the reinstall, it started to reboot at random times. As time went on, it would reboot right after POST. Another thing was the text for "Memory Test" during POST would be chopped off half way. I thought it was bad memory or bad power supply. I replaced both and still no good. I went ahead and tried a different graphics card for the hell of it, disconnected external drives, etc. Nothing. This had me stumped for the longest time until I opened my eyes and checked out a few of the capacitors near the AGP - They exploded. It was time for an upgrade anyhows so I didn't bother to try and replace them. So now when I encounter strange behavior like this, the first thing I do is now check the mobo...

- TL

Rudegar

08-03-04, 02:49 PM

it's it's electrolytes then you can prob replace them with new ones your self with an solvering iron
real Capacitors are more of a problem because on motherboard they are often smd and you have to be pretty good with a solvering iron to solver smd components

recall back in school when i looked at my smd solverings using a microscope i stop'd believing that i could outsolver machines and those women who work in such placers

SupRspi

08-10-04, 03:34 PM

I work in a computer repair shop, and I have personally replaced at least a dozen motherboards to leaking or burst capacitors. This is in a small town in British Columbia, so the problem would seem to be pretty widespread.

I have seen it on almost all brands of motherboards, but older ASUS and Abit boards seem to be most common. I have seen them on either Compaq or Dell, but not the other, can't remember which right now.

The tech that was here before me had run into some of them, but not many. I've been here a little over 2.5 years. There are two other techs here, and if they have the same average as me, thats 12x3 = 36 motherboards out of approx 20000 population, not all of whom have computers. There are two other repair shops in town, with 2 techs each. So then we have 12x7= 84 motherboards, approx. from a population of 20000. That seems to be a fairly large number. Of course, I could just have seen more of these than is normal or average, but it seems about right.

Just thought I'd toss in my .02