View Full Version : Fair Tax Act of 2009 (Here you go Jeff!)
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-h25/show
So 44 Republicans have already backed this new bill proposal. But I'm curious if the Democrats will back it or not.
For reference, does any other countries have a tax system like this bill is proposing? If so how's it working out for them?
Socialism, and the bad kind too.
Socialism, and the bad kind too.
How is getting rid of income tax socialism?
TechZeal
02-23-09, 11:44 AM
Sounds and looks nice at first... but there are a few things about it that make it very suspicious. Right off the bat they are misleading you. It is not 23% sales tax but a 30% sales tax the way that the average person would view it.
They state 23% as the tax is 23% of the total price AFTER taxes. Example: $100.00 CPU retail. You'd pay $30.00 in taxes on it. That is $130.00 total after taxes. $30.00 of $130.00 is 23%. There's your tax.
This is a poor way to start off. If this is how they open with it, what else are they going to try and hide from me? One of the articles at the bottom of the page you linked had some interesting comments on this. This (http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2009/02/19/tax-plans-look-good-surface-rotten-underneath/) is the one specifically.
Could something like this work? In theory, sure… In reality, I can't help but try and consider the people working on this and how we never clearly know what their intentions are. Especially when they try and phrase things cleverly, so as not to seem as what it really is… Come on. Some people may be stupid or not care. Doesn’t mean everyone is the same way.
How is getting rid of income tax socialism?
by repealing the income tax and other taxes
Depends on the taxes they're getting rid of, but say they get rid of the gas tax. Now all of a sudden people who drive more pay less, while people who drive less pay more. And that 30% vs 23% is also very misleading.
TechZeal
02-23-09, 12:02 PM
I'm not sure I follow the socialism here, but either way... It is simply supposed to be a tax only on things you buy. You keep everything you earn. You pay a extra when you purchase an item and that could clear up all the issues and dept in a couple years... not decades. There is a YouTube video or two out there that get into it.
It seems like a good idea. But there are questions about it still that I don't recall clear answers to. Like used items (cars, computers, clothes, etc.)... I think it was proposed that once a tax is paid on the item at the original sale that was it. The used price would be a little higher to make up for the original tax. But how does this work on a house? I buy a house that is new to me but most likely not a newly constructed home. I believe the Gov’t gets quite a bit of money from your property.
Now I am still new to the home owning and taxes thereof. I just bought my house last year. So maybe the Fed Gov't doesn't really get anything if much at all from houses. Is it all in your State and Local Gov’t taxes? You should note also that this "23%" tax does NOT include your State, County and Municipal Taxes which will continue in addition to the Federal Sales Tax.
Even if it is ACTUALLY 30% sales tax I'm still in favor because I lose 33% of my paycheck to income tax and THEN pay 7% sales tax.
And this encourages saving your money because you wont pay taxes on it if you don't spend it.
Nova I don't follow your Gas tax example. If they do away with Gas tax (which I don't think is part of this). Everyone will pay less for gas no matter how much they drive.
I'm not sure I follow the socialism here
Even if it is ACTUALLY 30% sales tax I'm still in favor because I lose 33% of my paycheck to income tax and THEN pay 7% sales tax.
Socialism right there. There are people making minimum wage who aren't paying anything close to 33% of their paycheck. With this new tax plan they'll be paying more, while Nataku pays less.
Also, nothing today encourages you to save your money. We have had huge inflation over the past decade and now with all the money that's being printed it's only a matter of time before the dollar really begins to lose its value.
Socialism right there. There are people making minimum wage who aren't paying anything close to 33% of their paycheck. With this new tax plan they'll be paying more, while Nataku pays less.
Also, nothing today encourages you to save your money. We have had huge inflation over the past decade and now with all the money that's being printed it's only a matter of time before the dollar really begins to lose its value.
Yes they are... How are they not paying equal income taxes? Everyone is taxed the same percentage of their wages.
Now each state may take different amounts. However the federal income tax is all the same I believe.
Are you proposing that I should have more of my money taken from me to help support those on minimum wage? That's wealth sharing (Socialism).
TechZeal
02-23-09, 02:09 PM
Even if it is ACTUALLY 30% sales tax I'm still in favor because I lose 33% of my paycheck to income tax and THEN pay 7% sales tax.
And this encourages saving your money because you wont pay taxes on it if you don't spend it.
Nova I don't follow your Gas tax example. If they do away with Gas tax (which I don't think is part of this). Everyone will pay less for gas no matter how much they drive.
But you will be paying more... the 7% is on what you purchase based off of what your state classifies as taxable. I live in New Jersey and we have 7% also (if you're from elsewhere). That 7% will still be there. Plus you will still have all the state and local deductions. So your income tax drops from the 33% down to about 8%. Sounds and looks great. But everything you purchase will be either 37% sales tax or 30% sales tax (difference being what the state MAY still label as non-taxable). The cost of gas in your car... gas/oil, electricity, to your house... food in any store... games, toys, accessories... everything going up in costs.
The whole basis of this proposal is that right now the Federal Gov't is not making enough money in the current system. This new system will supposedly give them more money and clear up dept in a few years... in so many months compared to the current system they claim will take decades if it ever gets on track.
I can't blindly accept this new system when there are so many questions that don't seem to be clearly answered. Where is all this money the think they are going to get coming from? Since, like you, many people will just sit back and save so much money. This system’s design is to cut some of the gov't fat and get them even more money. You can try and read the actual proposal but what else in there is written like the title that we are all going to miss. They say 23%... its 30%. I am not a tax specialist and some of this language is confusing at best. They have/can/will use their creative language to their advantage and the cost of the average person. Which is us.
Let alone what happens to all the people working in the IRS and tax focused accountants. I am not a fan of our current tax system and how obscure it is. But this one appears to ask me to sign up for it and see what I am stuck with later. That is not going to happen. At least I will not be a party supporting it. If it can be spelled out with enough information that people can figure out what it would cost them in a year and compare that to the current system and current income, then they can truly say whether it can or won’t work for them.
With this new tax plan they'll be paying more, while Nataku pays less.
That is not true; while this bill has some squirrely wording, it is a far cry from socialism.
Read sections 301 and 302.
Pretty much everyone except single people living alone (from the definition of "qualified family" in the bill's text) is eligible for a monthly rebate in the amount of .23 * monthly poverty rate.
If you're a family of two, you would be eligible, by 2008 numbers (http://www.dhs.state.ri.us/dhs/whatnew/pov_guidelines_08.pdf), to receive a rebate in the amount of .23 * $1,166 = $268 each month. This means that if you meet the definition of a "qualified family", which by the bill's text includes pretty much everyone, that you will not pay any federal sales tax for income earned at or below the poverty level (ignoring the 23 vs 30 issue).
People making minimum wage end up not paying any taxes at all (again, ignoring the 23 vs 30 issue).
I'm going to need to spend some time reading up on the 23% vs. 30% business; that guy's blog was not very well written. In any case, the rebate for income earned @ poverty level still makes this a pretty sweet deal for lower income earners.
Comixion
02-23-09, 02:23 PM
I'll keep it short and sweet......
Am I gonna get a check?:D
Where are you reading all this information? The link I posted wasn't a blog.
I'll keep it short and sweet......
Am I gonna get a check?:D
How about less being taken OUT of your check? :)
Yes they are... How are they not paying equal income taxes? Everyone is taxed the same percentage of their wages.
Now each state may take different amounts. However the federal income tax is all the same I believe.
http://www.savewealth.com/taxes/rates/2007/single/
Are you proposing that I should have more of my money taken from me to help support those on minimum wage? That's wealth sharing (Socialism).
This is actually what's happening right now. My point was that you will be paying some taxes that you would not normally pay. I'm not sure what taxes will be canceled but I'll go back to my example with the gas tax. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_tax) the average gas tax is $0.536 per gallon. Say you drive 10,000 miles a year at 25 miles per gallon, that's 400 gallons of gas. Now say Joe the plumber drives 30,000 miles a year at 25 miles per gallon. That's 1200 gallons of gas that he uses.
With the gas tax you pay:
Nataku => $214.4 per year.
Joe the plumber => $643.2 per year.
If we remove the gas tax and all other taxes and create this nice 30% flat tax, you will both be paying equally. So each of you will be paying $428.8 per year, no matter how much either of you drive. And basically your tax money is spread evenly across the board, thus making it socialism.
TechZeal
02-23-09, 02:31 PM
Yes they are... How are they not paying equal income taxes? Everyone is taxed the same percentage of their wages.
Now each state may take different amounts. However the federal income tax is all the same I believe.
Are you proposing that I should have more of my money taken from me to help support those on minimum wage? That's wealth sharing (Socialism).
There is another part of it. If they make less then a certain income, they still get whatever gov't support they already get and they would get to avoid the sales tax... not sure though. So if you're just over this limit, you are the worst off. If your poor, you still get you gov't check. If your rich, your expenses could go down with smart shopping and you would make a lot more then anyone else. I still dont see where this windfall of money would be coming from.
I could see a trend here though. You have middle class paying the same as the upper class for the same things. You have the poor paying less. Since there is more middle class the upper, there is a lot of money to be had I guess? I am not implying or saying that anyone needs to pay for anyone else. But in this new system, you will have the upper class paying much less to the federal gov't... the poor will still pay nothing... where do you think this extra money is coming from?
And you have to remove the people that buy outside thier means. There are people in any class that buy too much and would probably drop in class with this system.
I dont know. I can't seem to get my thoughts out clearly here. I keep rereading my posts and cant say whatever I am trying to get out and I am sorry if this is confusing. Please ask away and I will try and clear up whatever I can.
TechZeal
02-23-09, 02:36 PM
http://www.savewealth.com/taxes/rates/2007/single/
This is actually what's happening right now. My point was that you will be paying some taxes that you would not normally pay. I'm not sure what taxes will be canceled but I'll go back to my example with the gas tax. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_tax) the average gas tax is $0.536 per gallon. Say you drive 10,000 miles a year at 25 miles per gallon, that's 400 gallons of gas. Now say Joe the plumber drives 30,000 miles a year at 25 miles per gallon. That's 1200 gallons of gas that he uses.
With the gas tax you pay:
Nataku => $214.4 per year.
Joe the plumber => $643.2 per year.
If we remove the gas tax and all other taxes and create this nice 30% flat tax, you will both be paying equally. So each of you will be paying $428.8 per year, no matter how much either of you drive.
This wouldn't be an issue though in the new system. You only get taxed on what you buy. So if Nataku only bought 400 gallans, thats all he gets taxed on. Joe the plumber would pay a higher tax on his since he bought more.
TechZeal
02-23-09, 02:46 PM
Where are you reading all this information? The link I posted wasn't a blog.
There are a few sources for this information. And you have to go through them all (almost) to try and understand what it's suggesting and the implications of it. Dok had some interesting information I missed and would love to see what else he's come acrossed or thinks of it. And anyone else here for that matter. :)
And I am not meaning to argue against you Nataku, if I am coming acrossed that way, sorry. Just thought of it. I liked the idea last year and started asking around and reading up on it. It's vague and promises lots of money... sounds like a scam to me. ;) We already have a vague system anyway.
http://www.savewealth.com/taxes/rates/2007/single/
This is actually what's happening right now. My point was that you will be paying some taxes that you would not normally pay. I'm not sure what taxes will be canceled but I'll go back to my example with the gas tax. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_tax) the average gas tax is $0.536 per gallon. Say you drive 10,000 miles a year at 25 miles per gallon, that's 400 gallons of gas. Now say Joe the plumber drives 30,000 miles a year at 25 miles per gallon. That's 1200 gallons of gas that he uses.
With the gas tax you pay:
Nataku => $214.4 per year.
Joe the plumber => $643.2 per year.
If we remove the gas tax and all other taxes and create this nice 30% flat tax, you will both be paying equally. So each of you will be paying $428.8 per year, no matter how much either of you drive. And basically your tax money is spread evenly across the board, thus making it socialism.
Actually as TechZeal already just mention. We wouldn't both pay $428.80 per year in gas tax. I would pay 30% of the price for my 400 gallons. And Joe would pay 30% of the price for the 1200 Gallons he bought. It's perfectly fair. He's not paying more than me, he's just driving more than me.
http://www.savewealth.com/taxes/rates/2007/single/
The more you know...
That's messed up.
Where are you reading all this information? The link I posted wasn't a blog.
Sorry, I meant the blog that TechZeal linked. It had some clarification on the 23 vs 30% tax rate issue that was raised; I didn't like how that was written, but it does provide some food for thought and deserves to be scrutinized.
The rub is the wording in the bill for "sum of total gross payments" and that the federal tax rate applies to that and not to the retail cost. I think the 30% figure was assuming 7% sales tax (23 + 7 = 30), so that would vary by state depending on the state's tax rate.
New Hampshire is starting to look even better :).
Sorry, I meant the blog that TechZeal linked. It had some clarification on the 23 vs 30% tax rate issue that was raised; I didn't like how that was written, but it does provide some food for thought and deserves to be scrutinized.
The rub is the wording in the bill for "sum of total gross payments" and that the federal tax rate applies to that and not to the retail cost. I think the 30% figure was assuming 7% sales tax (23 + 7 = 30), so that would vary by state depending on the state's tax rate.
New Hampshire is starting to look even better :).
Don't forget this section of the bill. "and enacting a national sales tax to be administered primarily by the States."
So the state would get to govern the tax in your state right? Sounds good to me. If I don't like the taxes in SC I'll move.
AKHandyman
02-23-09, 03:21 PM
Okay guys ... let an expert jump in here ... I've been advocating the FairTax for at least two years. I know how you feel Tech ... I felt skeptical as well, but once I dove deep into the guts of the bill, I know that this is the one and only way out of the mess we're in ... but you obviously haven't had the time to read what the actual bill would do. Just a sampling from from the website:
The FairTax plan is a comprehensive proposal that replaces all federal income and payroll based taxes with an integrated approach including:
* A progressive national retail sales tax.
* A prebate to ensure no American pays federal taxes on spending up to the poverty level.
* Dollar-for-dollar federal revenue neutrality.
* Repeal of the 16th Amendment through companion legislation.
The 23 percent FairTax rate set out in HR 25/S 1025 is a tax-inclusive rate, as is the current personal income tax, whereas most state-level sales taxes are quoted on a tax-exclusive basis. For ease of comparison, FairTax.org gives the tax rate both ways. Both rates are relevant, since the FairTax is replacing an income tax system, and 23 percent correctly represents the tax burden compared to the current system.
The other main point here is that the tax is a National Sales Tax on goods, not services, or food, or medicine. The bottom line is that ALL people, whether poor or rich, have to buy goods at one time or another. Even illicit d-r-u-g dealers and many other people in the underground economy have to buy stuff, especially shyt like big ole LCD tvs, home theater surround sound, dubs for their pimp mobiles, ... the list goes on and on. In addition, the tax is imposed only ONCE on goods at the retail level, but never again when you sell the stuff at a garage sale.
No one would have any payroll taxes taken out of their check, and the prebate is up to the poverty level, which would be adjusted yearly by the Health and Human Services for inflation. Another good thing is that you would never have to file an income tax return, which by the way, is the biggest form of tax evasion the government has to fight. Lots of bucks go down the drain that way, not to mention the amount that it COSTS the Feds to fund the IRS. It's a win-win situation for the United States and its citizens.
If you are willing to spend some time reading ... this article is excellent and has some very interesting facts ... it'll give you a better insight as to why this bill should be enacted upon ASAP!
FairTax Article on Rates (http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/Tax%20Notes%20article%20on%20FT%20rate.pdf)
Also ... forgot the link to the official website in case anyone wants to become a member ... I am :D
Americans For Fair Taxation!! (http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer)
AKHandyman
02-23-09, 03:37 PM
BTW ... thanks Luke for posting that ... I've posted several times about the FairTax, and it doesn't hurt to keep reminding people that this bill is still in the hands of our publicly-elected servants ... which will only get enacted upon if more citizens contact their Senators, Congressmen, and local politicians. It's still a grassroots swelling, but it's getting more attention everyday, considering the way the economy is all fvcked up ... ;)
Everyone should become a member and let other people know about it! It's the only way it will become law!!
BTW ... thanks Luke for posting that ... I've posted several times about the FairTax, and it doesn't hurt to keep reminding people that this bill is still in the hands of our publicly-elected servants ... which will only get enacted upon if more citizens contact their Senators, Congressmen, and local politicians. It's still a grassroots swelling, but it's getting more attention everyday, considering the way the economy is all fvcked up ... ;)
Everyone should become a member and let other people know about it! It's the only way it will become law!!
When this was first brought to my attention during college I thought it was a horrible idea. But the more I researched it and started to really pay attention to how much of my money is taken from me I started to rethink the bill.
But no one yet has answered my question about whether any other country is doing this?
AKHandyman
02-23-09, 05:20 PM
When this was first brought to my attention during college I thought it was a horrible idea. But the more I researched it and started to really pay attention to how much of my money is taken from me I started to rethink the bill.
But no one yet has answered my question about whether any other country is doing this?None that I can think of at the moment Luke. We are a unique and diverse country. Only shyt like this can happen in our country. No where else ... lol.
Comixion
02-23-09, 05:57 PM
...and the check?
AKHandyman
02-23-09, 06:06 PM
Somewhere, sometime ... but who knows how much? Only the anointed One knows for sure ... :rolleyes:
But no one yet has answered my question about whether any other country is doing this?
In democratic country? Not yet :fighty:
Most of democratic country are still developing, and there is some form of socialism to support welfare.
Comixion
02-24-09, 01:13 PM
yada yada....I just want my paycheck fattened.
http://finance.yahoo.com/taxes/article/106626/Your-Share-of-Stimulus-Tax-Breaks
yada yada....I just want my paycheck fattened.
http://finance.yahoo.com/taxes/article/106626/Your-Share-of-Stimulus-Tax-Breaks
You are awfully easy to please eh?
yada yada....I just want my paycheck fattened.
http://finance.yahoo.com/taxes/article/106626/Your-Share-of-Stimulus-Tax-Breaks
I'm going to spend the extra $65 each month on ammo.
I just ordered 1000 rounds of .45s for me and 1000 rounds of .223s for my bro-in-law for his girly little poodle shooter (AKA his AR-15).
I'm going to spend the extra $65 each month on ammo.
I just ordered 1000 rounds of .45s for me and 1000 rounds of .223s for my bro-in-law for his girly little poodle shooter (AKA his AR-15).
I need to order some rounds before Obama's tax proposal goes through. He wants to add a 5 Cent per round tax.
Comixion
02-24-09, 01:50 PM
I'm going to spend the extra $65 each month on ammo.
I just ordered 1000 rounds of .45s for me and 1000 rounds of .223s for my bro-in-law for his girly little poodle shooter (AKA his AR-15).
That's the ticket!:thumb:
I'm gonna buy HW! *sp1t*
I need to order some rounds before Obama's tax proposal goes through. He wants to add a 5 Cent per round tax.
WTF I haven't heard of this. Do you have a link?
*Nevermind, just found it. I didn't realize the $0.05/rd tax was part of the ammunition encoding business, or "Ammunition Accountability Act". In any case, I'll have my own reloading setup by the end of the year, so this won't affect me; screw the requirement for "destroying" ammo by June (assuming this makes it that far). What are they going to do? Come to everyone's houses and confiscate ammo?
I can't find anything from Obama saying that he supports this, though. So far, the legislation has only been presented at the state level in a little over a dozen states. I haven't seen anything saying that this has been proposed at the federal level.
Do you have any additional info on this?
Comixion
02-24-09, 07:08 PM
Wait a minute Dok. You may want to reconsider.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123543023154353525.html?mod=yhoofront
Now that would be sweet to park in the bayou down here. That's one badass mudboat!
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